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wigout
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 7:39 pm Posts: 43
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 Re: GPL
J-
The problem is that even if the source that you begin with remains the same (like busybox.1.1.3 here for example) any modifications that you make to the source code requires you to redistribute it anew.
It is improbable (like Marilyn Monroe found alive and young and married to Stephen Hawking) that the development team has not modified the config file for busybox 1.1.3 even once in the various firmware releases, beta and otherwise.
A recent build of busybox from firmware 7.3.4.r3582 has netstat built into busybox. An older build of busybox from firmware 7.06.r1402, does not.
A different option builitin to busybox? A different config file. A different config file? A new GPL release.
And I remain convinced that the squashfs implementation that merited a bootcode up date affected something- likely a patch to the kernel source.
-wigout
_________________minimodding.com- a place for open discussion of modifications to embedded linux devices
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| Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:45 pm |
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hvdwolf
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:51 am Posts: 118 Location: Zwolle, Nederland
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 Re: GPL
junwei wrote: Our development team have checked with Realtek - there isn't any changes between the old and new SDK for the open source codes used by them. This is not relevant at all. If software is released under GPL, ALL parts fall under GPL. This means the SDK itself, but also every aspect of the playon firmware software. GPL means that you don't need to publish if you change the software without releasing it, but if you do release your version of the software, in this case the firmware containing other parts released under GPL, you must publish the source code. In other words: This also means that if you modify only one aspect of the software, being FW 3582, 4312, 4318, 4090, etc., you are obliged to publish the firmware source code for that version: ALWAYS!
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| Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:47 pm |
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wigout
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 7:39 pm Posts: 43
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 Re: GPL
I'm not sure about everything hvdwolf said, but I am sure that the config file for busybox changed and that means that at least that portion requires a new gpl release.
Of course any changes to any of the source code for any of the other gpl programs would require a new gpl release for those programs.
Let alone patches to the kernel to handle squashfs......
-wigout
_________________minimodding.com- a place for open discussion of modifications to embedded linux devices
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| Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:40 am |
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hvdwolf
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:51 am Posts: 118 Location: Zwolle, Nederland
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 Re: GPL
I made a very firm statement in my previous post and maybe a bit too blunt. I'm sorry if I upset people by that post. However, the info is correct. wigout wrote: Of course any changes to any of the source code for any of the other gpl programs would require a new gpl release for those programs. That's correct but that's not the responsibility of A.C.Ryan. If A.C.Ryan releases their software under GPL then A.C.Ryan need to make it possible for everyone to get a copy of the source code of this new release. It also means that they don't need to make their repository open to the public. All developments between releases can be kept from the public, but the source code of the release versions need to be made public. wigout wrote: Let alone patches to the kernel to handle squashfs...... I understand that your interest lies in the technical parts, but, again, everyhing belonging to the release, is part of the GPL license. Even if they only add one city to one of the weather rss files and they put it in their release, they are obliged to publish the source code, or their GPL "partner" for that piece of the release need to do so. Currently it is not clear to me what A.C.Ryan uses/copies from elsewhere and what is really A.C.Ryan source code. That's also something that should be mentioned in some Readme file IN the source code release and it would be handy to put it somewhere on their website, if only to put the responsibility somewhere else. I have been googling for the Realtek SDK as package and source code but I can't find it. Is that one GPLed? If not, the A.C.Ryan firmware can't be GPL either. In that case it should be LGPL. EDIT: The Realtek SDK should be GPLed or have a GPL compatible license like BSD or Apache or whatever. If it is closed source, the A.C.Ryan firmware can only be LGPL.
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| Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:01 am |
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wigout
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 7:39 pm Posts: 43
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 Re: GPL
Just to clear things up: ACRyan has a few, critical proprietary programs/protocols that make up the heart of these media players.
The biggest pieces are: the audio firmware, the video firmware, the /usr/local/bin/DvdPlayer, the /usr/local/bin/RootApp, and the particular way they implement hdmi/composite output.
Those pieces are not open source. They are proprietary. No one is obligated to release the source code for these pieces and when they have done so it has been accidental.
The kernel, busybox, wifi supplicant, sqlite3, and a number of other features are "open source" usually GPL v2, some v3.
To use those programs, you have to supply the source code for those programs. Additionally you have to provide the alterations you made to that source code to make it work with your device & other programs.
In the past, a company made a device and rarely released an update for the device. In that case a single release of source code material sufficed.
Today, many updates get issued. The burden shifts to company to make available the source code again with each update release.
What ACRyan is claiming is that, gee, we did that once and nothing has changed since we did it that one time.
I have not looked into any of the other GPL programs, but certainly busybox has changed. That means that ACRyan needs to re-release that source code and modifications.
The easiest thing to do is: Ask their developer for an archive of all GPL source code, build scripts and configuration files.
If their contractor is using an open source build system, just post a tar-ball of the entire build system tree.
Per release.
-wigout
_________________minimodding.com- a place for open discussion of modifications to embedded linux devices
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| Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:31 pm |
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hvdwolf
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:51 am Posts: 118 Location: Zwolle, Nederland
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 Re: GPL
wigout wrote: Just to clear things up: ACRyan has a few, critical proprietary programs/protocols that make up the heart of these media players.
The biggest pieces are: the audio firmware, the video firmware, the /usr/local/bin/DvdPlayer, the /usr/local/bin/RootApp, and the particular way they implement hdmi/composite output.
Those pieces are not open source. They are proprietary. No one is obligated to release the source code for these pieces and when they have done so it has been accidental.
Thanks for your explanation, but this is exactly what I was looking for. If you create GPL software that uses closed source than you can only release it as LGPL. If you release software based on GPL software, then automatically your software becomes GPL as well and you MUST make your source code available. Otherwise you are not allowed to make it in to one package, e.g. the firmware release. This is the most strict part in the GPL licenses. So the statement: "Those pieces are not open source. They are proprietary. No one is obligated to release the source code for these pieces" is completely in contrary with the (very clear) legal parts of the GPL licenses. The option to circumvent this, is to release your software as a (closed source) package and give the user the option to download the GPL parts and add it to the package (the firmware in this case). Any other combination is illegal. You are not allowed to pack it in the same zip or on the same CD or in the same device. So A.C.Ryan has 3 options: - release their firmware as LGPL (as it is based on closed source, that's allowed) - release their firmware as closed source with absolutely no GPL in it. The installer or the installed software (firmware) should then give the end user the option to download the GPL parts and install them. - release their firmware as proprietary closed source and rewrite every part of the used GPL stuff themselves (and not copy or reverse engineer it) to make it an integral part of their firmware. A 4th option could be that the GPL lawyers prosecute A.C.Ryan if they don't apply to one of the 3 options mentioned above. I don't hope it comes that far as I'm afraid that will extremely slow down further progress in firmware versions. I have been very long in OS being an OSX bundle maintainer for a couple of GPL (or compatible licensed) programs with two programs of my own creation. The playonHDmini is my first player. And then there are the WDTV live, Eminent, the Asus O!Play and other players. How do they deal with GPL?
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| Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:52 pm |
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hvdwolf
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:51 am Posts: 118 Location: Zwolle, Nederland
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 Re: GPL
Aaargh! When reading back my post I see that the first part is not very clear. The firmware contains closed source software and GPLed software. The closed source software is obviously from ACRyan and from third parties. The GPLed software is from third parties. Having closed source third party software in your GPLed open source software is allowed. However, your software becomes than LGPL. Having your own software as closed source and mixing it with GPLed software is not allowed. hvdwolf wrote: If you release software based on GPL software, then automatically your software becomes GPL as well and you MUST make your source code available. Otherwise you are not allowed to make it in to one package, e.g. the firmware release. This is the most strict part in the GPL licenses. So the statement: "Those pieces are not open source. They are proprietary. No one is obligated to release the source code for these pieces" is completely in contrary with the (very clear) legal parts of the GPL licenses.
This part relates to the fact that it's not allowed to release your own (A.C.Ryans) software as closed while using GPLed software. To release your software as closed source, while still using GPLed software requires a different release strategy. hvdwolf wrote: The option to circumvent this, is to release your software as a (closed source) package and give the user the option to download the GPL parts and add it to the package (the firmware in this case). Any other combination is illegal. You are not allowed to pack it in the same zip or on the same CD or in the same device.
So A.C.Ryan has 3 options: - release their firmware as LGPL (as it is based on closed source, that's allowed) - release their firmware as closed source with absolutely no GPL in it. The installer or the installed software (firmware) should then give the end user the option to download the GPL parts and install them. - release their firmware as proprietary closed source and rewrite every part of the used GPL stuff themselves (and not copy or reverse engineer it) to make it an integral part of their firmware.
A 4th option could be that the GPL lawyers prosecute A.C.Ryan if they don't apply to one of the 3 options mentioned above. I don't hope it comes that far as I'm afraid that will extremely slow down further progress in firmware versions.
This remains the same, be it that for the first point they need to release their own source, so NO propriatary A.C.RYan closed source. hvdwolf wrote: And then there are the WDTV live, Eminent, the Asus O!Play and other players. How do they deal with GPL? Right now I'm curious enough to start googling for this as well.
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| Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:40 am |
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mensch
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:46 am Posts: 94
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 Re: GPL
hvdwolf wrote: Having closed source third party software in your GPLed open source software is allowed. However, your software becomes than LGPL. Having your own software as closed source and mixing it with GPLed software is not allowed. This is the official text by the Free Software Foundation: Quote: I'd like to incorporate GPL-covered software in my proprietary system. Can I do this? You cannot incorporate GPL-covered software in a proprietary system. The goal of the GPL is to grant everyone the freedom to copy, redistribute, understand, and modify a program. If you could incorporate GPL-covered software into a non-free system, it would have the effect of making the GPL-covered software non-free too. A system incorporating a GPL-covered program is an extended version of that program. The GPL says that any extended version of the program must be released under the GPL if it is released at all. This is for two reasons: to make sure that users who get the software get the freedom they should have, and to encourage people to give back improvements that they make.
However, in many cases you can distribute the GPL-covered software alongside your proprietary system. To do this validly, you must make sure that the free and non-free programs communicate at arms length, that they are not combined in a way that would make them effectively a single program.
The difference between this and “incorporating” the GPL-covered software is partly a matter of substance and partly form. The substantive part is this: if the two programs are combined so that they become effectively two parts of one program, then you can't treat them as two separate programs. So the GPL has to cover the whole thing.
If the two programs remain well separated, like the compiler and the kernel, or like an editor and a shell, then you can treat them as two separate programs—but you have to do it properly. The issue is simply one of form: how you describe what you are doing. Why do we care about this? Because we want to make sure the users clearly understand the free status of the GPL-covered software in the collection.
If people were to distribute GPL-covered software calling it “part of” a system that users know is partly proprietary, users might be uncertain of their rights regarding the GPL-covered software. But if they know that what they have received is a free program plus another program, side by side, their rights will be clear. I'm not sure if the firmware counts as a single software package. It uses many different components with different licenses, but is never combined into one software package, you have the video player, audio player, Bittorrent client, etc. which are all separate. Any changes Realtek or ACRyan makes to individual GPL licensed software libraries (like Busybox) should be published on their website. A company like Codeweavers, who distribute the proprietary Crossover based on Wine doesn't publish their Crossover source either, although Wine constitutes of 80% of their product. They do however publish all their modifications, which are very substantial, to the Wine sourcetree however. Apple also uses a lot of GPL (and BSD) licensed software and are obliged to publish the source, which they do with Darwin. The GUI they built and other essential parts of the OS X "experience" are closed source and Apple isn't obliged to publish their efforts in those areas of software development. I'm no expert at licenses or any legal matter (it's a shame Groklaw doesn't have a forum), but I'm really not sure if AC Ryan is obliged to make their firmware sourcecode completely public. An expert should have a say if the firmware should be regarded as a program, or a loose collection of programmes. It would be absolutely great to have an opensource firmware or SDK however, so different groups of people can develop the firmware they want for an otherwise great device, based on their own priorities.
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| Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:16 pm |
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hvdwolf
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:51 am Posts: 118 Location: Zwolle, Nederland
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 Re: GPL
mensch wrote: Quote: <snip>
However, in many cases you can distribute the GPL-covered software alongside your proprietary system. To do this validly, you must make sure that the free and non-free programs communicate at arms length, that they are not combined in a way that would make them effectively a single program.
The difference between this and “incorporating” the GPL-covered software is partly a matter of substance and partly form. The substantive part is this: if the two programs are combined so that they become effectively two parts of one program, then you can't treat them as two separate programs. So the GPL has to cover the whole thing.
If the two programs remain well separated, like the compiler and the kernel, or like an editor and a shell, then you can treat them as two separate programs—but you have to do it properly. The issue is simply one of form: how you describe what you are doing. Why do we care about this? Because we want to make sure the users clearly understand the free status of the GPL-covered software in the collection.
I'm not sure if the firmware counts as a single software package. It uses many different components with different licenses, but is never combined into one software package, you have the video player, audio player, Bittorrent client, etc. which are all separate. Any changes Realtek or ACRyan makes to individual GPL licensed software libraries (like Busybox) should be published on their website. A company like Codeweavers, who distribute the proprietary Crossover based on Wine doesn't publish their Crossover source either, although Wine constitutes of 80% of their product. They do however publish all their modifications, which are very substantial, to the Wine sourcetree however. You are right and so is Wigout. I'm wrong. Thanks for pointing this discussion (and me) in the right direction. I still make stupid mistakes after so many years. It is indeed a complete package of several tools, binaries and libraries. And indeed: changes made by ACRyan to the GPL parts need to be published. Also: If they statically link libraries into their tools, making it one library or binary, these tools become as a whole GPL and need to be published in source code.
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| Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:16 pm |
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wigout
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 7:39 pm Posts: 43
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 Re: GPL
Oh and because apparently I am blind, the Firmware_PV73100_v7.3.4.r3582_European contains: a /usr/local/etc/busybox1.11.2 which absolutley requires a new source release (definitely different busybox source than the standard) along with the config/source modifications. and the /usr/local/bin/solib/ files: libbcti_mips.so -- http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Libctllibiconv.so.2.5.0 -- http://www.gnu.org/software/libiconv/libstdc++.so.6.0.3 -- http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/latest-doxygen/libemscore.so.0.1.1154 & libemsnet.so.0.1.1154 -- both clearly have to do with "tvod" tv on demand- both have the following in their strings: deflate 1.2.3 Copyright 1995-2005 Jean-loup Gailly inflate 1.2.3 Copyright 1995-2005 Mark Adler which are part of the zlib set of sourcecode- yet these libraries are something in combination with those programs..... All of those mentioned above are gpl or have gpl incorporated in them. And have not had any source released for them. So, I'd say they have some 'splainin' to do, J. -wigout
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| Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:33 am |
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